Episode 88 - Donovan Loomis in South Korea
Date: 2018-06-14 | Duration: 44:47
Topics
Discussion with American living in South Korea for 10 years How do things look from SK perspective? Compared to US, SK has… Better healthcare Better technology Lower taxes Higher housing costs SK conservatives view on peace and denuclearization? SK liberals view on peace and denuclearization? SK rising unemployment Feelings of hope, excitement, skepticism? Health differences between SK and NK? SK general feelings about President Trump? SK general reaction to Trump walk-away from talks? Fears of dying in a “lake of fire”? US people verbally attacking Kim is NOT helpful Otto Warmbier, SK perceptions on what happened
Transcript
[0:08]
Pom pom pom pom pom pom pom pom. Hey everybody, come on in here. Today we’ve got a very special Periscope I’ll tell you about in a minute as soon as we get some folks in here. Let’s try to not talk about Roseanne Barr today if we can. Today we’re going to be talking about South Korea primarily. We’re using the Interface app, and over my left shoulder is Donovan Loomis, who’s in South Korea and has been in South Korea for about 10 years and is coaching English to business folks. We’re going to talk to Donovan about what the mood is, what’s the feeling in South Korea here, and learn what we can on the ground. As soon as we have a thousand—which is going to happen right about now, close enough—I would like to introduce Donovan Loomis in South Korea.
[1:11]
Donovan has been in South Korea for the past 10 years. Donovan, say hi. Yeah, so we’ve got a super-clear connection there. Is it true that the Wi-Fi in, or just the internet speed in South Korea is just amazing, the best in the world? And more generally, would you say that living in South Korea is a…
[2:14]
…higher-end experience beyond just the technology? Are people experiencing a higher quality of life or no? And you pay nothing for the healthcare?
[3:36]
I was—just before we go too far on medicine, I wanted to ask you, what are the tax rates like? The average taxes, are they more or less than in the US? That’s it? So you’re living in a country with better technology than the US, better healthcare, and substantially lower taxes. Is that true? That’s all true, right? Yes, housing costs are higher. There’s always something, right? All right, so let’s talk about the mood over there. I’m sure you’re…
[4:39]
…interacting, especially because of your job, you interact with quite a few South Koreans in a casual way. What do they say about what’s going on right now with North Korea and South Korea talking? What’s the mood? I think the general consensus is we’re moving to peace, we’re moving to denuclearization, we’re moving to reunification. There’s a lot of progress and people are resolved to this. Now, do the South Koreans believe that North Korea is serious and genuine about…
[5:40]
…denuclearizing? Do they think it’s a trick, or do they think now everything we’ve seen looks like it’s real? Which of those do they generally feel? There’s a little bit of a negative perspective on what’s going on, but then again, the Conservative Party, their main role is kind of to be that whole war that goes on, the whole North Korea thing. So that’s kind of their perspective. On the liberal side, they’re very positive about what’s happening. They truly believe that reunification will be happening. Generally, the overall mood is this is legitimate; we just need…
[6:41]
…to figure things out. Trump and Kim just need to sit down and talk things out. I’m seeing a question go by about the diversity in South Korea. Is South Korea—with the exception of you and a few foreigners there who are there not as citizens, I assume—is it mostly South Koreans? And what are the—are there any prejudices against North Koreans by the South Koreans? Given that they have very little contact, of course, but do they have a negative feeling about the fact that they may be open and dealing with a lot of North Koreans? So let me stop you…
[8:14]
…Why can’t people get opportunity? The economy is terrific. Young people arise, people are trying, but so far no one has really found a solution for it or really can’t explain why. Getting back to how they feel, I think people are kind of concerned about how that’s going to work out. If we’re talking about North Korean refugees, from the government they get quite a bit of assistance and support, but they do face some discrimination in employment and in general life living in…
[9:16]
…South Korea. Is the thought in South Korea—we don’t know how any kind of a deal will turn out—but is the thought that this thing called reunification is something that could happen, at least in historical terms, relatively quickly, or something that might have to be spread out over a long period to make sure there’s not too much shock to the system? Are there people in South Korea saying, “Gosh, I can’t wait to visit North Korea,” either for tourist reasons or just…
[10:25]
…So there’s mostly sort of a curiosity travel element to it? But people have a positive feeling about going to visit. Divorced or separated from your sister nation pretty much by ideology for so long, so there’s a lot of people—I think not quite coming back home, but kind of creating a home together. There’s this kind of very emotional mood around, just like “we’re back together.” Somebody just asked an interesting question that went by: the two Koreas have been separated for so long, is there a language difference? Unique Korean words or…
[11:50]
…computer, it has some other different names. So there are some language differences. Now, I’ve also heard some speculation that there might be a substantial height difference that has developed because of nutritional differences. Is that real? And do you think that the South Koreans are going to have something like a prejudice or discrimination problem with the North Koreans, or are they going to say, “Thank goodness we’re all together again,” and that’s the end of it? Reunification…
[12:54]
…occurs. If South Koreans have to foot the bill, yeah, negative perspectives. If they don’t have to foot the bill and they benefit as well from investment from the world, then I think you’re going to see mostly positive interaction. Now, you deal with mostly business people, is that true? Some workers, the rest are college students or parents of children who attend international schools. Would you say that the business people are showing interest in maybe investing in North Korea? Or do they think—because I worry that that’s just something that the politicians are talking about and the business people are like, “I wouldn’t touch it”—or do they say, “Yeah,” and all that’s…
[14:25]
…really sorted? Industries like construction and transportation stand a chance to gain. But your average business… from my perspective in terms of reunification, is this the first time that the folks you talk to have ever thought it could happen in their lifetime? Or have they been teased before, not just about denuclearization, but about reunification? How unique is that conversation?
[15:25]
The illusion of reunification has just been floated by so many times that there’s quite a healthy amount of skepticism. But something about the Trump-Moon-Kim mix is unlike anything anybody has ever seen. Probably a lot of the people I’ve talked to, they attribute this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to the emergence of Trump and Moon at this unique time. That’s the perfect question; I’m seeing some of the commenters prompting me to ask that question. First, the South Korean feeling about President Trump…
[16:56]
…so do they interpret this as something he is uniquely qualified for, or do they think it’s just sort of the right time and he’s not breaking anything? Do they think he’s making it happen, or just happens to be the—so, remember when Trump walked away and the whole world was like, “Oh my god”? That same day, I’m talking with my clients, and they’re like, “He wrote the book The Art of the Deal, right?”
[17:59]
The people who have a business filter on the world saw it for exactly what it was, and people who maybe are less experienced in negotiating for a living saw it as a little bit more of a risk. I think that would be true here as well. Now, you’ve been there for a long time, so you may not—I know you’re following American politics. Do you follow American politics while you’re over there? Now, over here…
[19:16]
…The reason I ask that setup question is that over here, probably 50%—modestly 50%—of all the news about President Trump is one side accusing him of being a racist. Does that accusation mean anything in South Korea? Or do they just ignore it? Or do they say, “Well, I don’t care if he is or not, it doesn’t affect us.” How do they process that accusation? Okay, so in South Korea, presumably, they’re not consuming a nonstop diet of completely different…
[20:41]
…movies. It says here: security, not getting wiped off the face of the map, healthy trade, employment—this is what matters to us. How was the mood when the conversation between Trump and Kim was more bellicose and they were insulting each other? Was there real fear in South Korea? And that was, I think, the only time that I could feel—because for the last ten years, every month we heard from North Korea that we’re going to be destroyed in a…
[21:42]
…great lake of fire. I would say briefly during that time there was kind of like a drought where you didn’t mind the continuous reminders that you are going to be destroyed in a lake of fire. But as soon as they said “dotard,” things got real. Now let me ask you about the rhetoric. So Kim…
[22:43]
…Kim Jong Un speaks in a way that we’re used to only seeing from a President Trump, frankly. It’s a style of over-the-top rhetoric that is common. Does his rhetoric—I’m talking about Kim Jong Un—does his rhetoric sound over-the-top to South Koreans, or is there a style in which that’s normal for politicians? Is it normal to anybody? But threats for the last 60 years in the exact same way, nothing has changed. It’s a cycle. It’s beautiful; it works.
[23:47]
The North Koreans, we presume, if reunification happened, would you expect the average North Korean who is not a political person to speak with hyperbole? Or do you think it’s probably just limited to the Kims and how they talk? In your short conversation with a North Korean defector—I assume that he’s got to be a defector, right? Yeah. Did you say, “The weather looks warm today,” and he said, “I think we’re going to die in a ball of fire”? Nothing…
[24:49]
…like that happening. All right, so I think I answered that question. You see general optimism, but the people on the right are saying, “Don’t trust them.” You’ve seen the actual Korean language statements coming out of North Korea. One of the things that I keep being concerned about, as I think plenty of people are, is that Kim has said things like this: “I totally want to get rid of my nuclear weapons,” and everybody goes “Yeah!” and then he adds sort of an afterthought: “Yeah, when the rest of the world gets rid of nuclear weapons, I’m on board.” In other words, he says it and then he takes it away in the second part of the sentence. When you read the actual Korean language statements from Kim Jong Un, is he taking it away in the second part of…
[25:50]
…the statement? Or is he saying in very clear language, “I do want to get rid of these,” and the rest of you don’t have to refer to the world? But I even have my…
[27:07]
…girlfriend check news for me to confirm. There has not been that “whole world” bit, but to think about it—the US has bases here, and some of those bases may have ships and carry… you know, Korea also has nuclear power plants here. So this may be Kim’s way of assuring—I can’t get into his head, that’s just my personal opinion—but yeah, it refers to Korea.
[28:07]
Okay, and is there a feeling that in South Korea people think that Kim Jong Un—well, I guess you answered this question—the people on the right don’t trust them, the people on the left are optimistic. What else do you think we should know about the mood there in South Korea?
[30:05]
I’m going to reinforce what you just said. I’ve been saying the same thing: that in the age of the internet, the public is very much part of the process, even if they don’t want to be and they don’t think they are. Because in our system of government, everybody observing knows that the leaders are going to be greatly influenced to the point of having to do what the majority of the public wants them to do. In other words, they can’t get elected unless they do. So our public opinion—to the extent that we keep up our bad rhetoric as just citizens who think we’re just talking to my friend here on the internet—that has to have an impact on the process. And we observed that President Trump is leading by modeling in this case, from his normal bellicose language to, “Hey, can we be friends? I think this could work out.” He’s completely…
[31:05]
…modified his own presentation. I have tweeted that if we’re smart—we the public—and we want a good result, we should follow the leader in this case and modify—just get out of the “who won, who lost” frame. Because frankly, I don’t see that as being the right frame here. I see two groups who have a bad situation and have an opportunity for both of them to come out way ahead. This is the biggest win-win-win-win opportunity that has ever existed since I suppose Japan decided to accept aid to rebuild after World War II, right? This is potentially, even—and people will hate me for saying this—but Kim Jong Un has an opportunity to be one of the most consequential and important figures in the history of the planet Earth.
[32:06]
He’s well on his way to making that happen. Now, you can judge for whatever else he has done, and that’s separate. For our own benefit, for our own selfish interest as well as the good of the world, we should be treating someone like him as heroic, brave, future-forward, good for his people. It’s probably a terribly hard thing to do and be on many levels, but there is something very respectful about what’s happening right now. We should be part of the process. Thank you for saying that because I think that’s an important message. Right away after Trump’s letter was made public, the North Koreans and South Koreans got together for an ad hoc…
[33:06]
…second summit. I think if the North Korean government is sincere—and apparently it is, because both parties are hoping to meet on June 12th—the second point goes back to that negative approach that a lot of people are taking to North Korea. I understand how people can wish for Trump and Kim to fail in Singapore, but the lives… I’ve got friends who just had a baby, and my friend, if war breaks out, is going to be…
[34:09]
…on the front lines. He is still young enough to be called back into the military. Not just one; a lot of my friends could die. Thousands of people could lose their lives, and here people are being petty, saying, “I hope you fail. I hope that this blows back in your face.” I cannot understand hate to justify that. I would say my filter on this is that what appears to us as being hatred of President Trump and anything that might be a success is a form of cognitive dissonance. There are people who’ve bet their entire personality and…
[35:10]
…reputation on the fact that President Trump can’t do things, can’t make anything work. So if he makes this work, it’s going to be a huge blow to who they are as a person. I think it’s expressing itself in this bizarre way, as cognitive dissonance will do, so that what you see seems almost like hoping for failure and war. It does look exactly like that, but I think where it’s coming from is not a place of stupidity; it’s not a place of evil; it’s not a place of wanting anybody to die. It’s a place of not being able to integrate who they know they are with what they’re observing. There’s such a disconnect between their worldview and what they see as obviously happening in front of their eyes that they have to redefine it as, “Yeah, I’ve always been right, and you’re going to see that I was right.” Because in their view, whatever war…
[36:11]
…bad things are going to happen anyway, so they’re not rooting for them; they’re just sort of predicting them based on their rightness. But I totally get how, if you’re on the frontline, you’re not thinking about how your psychology is working. You’re thinking, “Stop saying that, you’re going to get me killed.” You’re just not on the side of the angels here, and I think we all see that. All right, I have one more question only because so many people have asked it in the comments. I was going to ignore this, but let’s get your take. In the United States, we have a large emotional investment in the Otto Warmbier situation, and people feel like it’s this unsettled, hard-to-get-past-it situation. In South Korea, is that even much of a story?
[37:13]
Unspeakable event over here. During that time, it was emotional, and some people could kind of…
[38:14]
…feel sorry for that. But that quickly got replaced by our own sorrows, our own tragedies that we have faced over here. People want the North Korean government judged; they want justice; they want some sort of retribution for what has happened to their own people as well as to people who have been there. I think that is something that does need to be taken care of in time. How you get there, I don’t really have a good answer for that, because I know there are a lot of people who are grieving, a lot of people who are hurt, a lot of people who want to see justice. But I think those justice questions maybe precede denuclearization, and those might have to happen at different times. I’m not sure. Let me ask you a highly…
[39:18]
…speculative question, with the understanding that none of us can actually know the answer to this, but I want to get just a general sense. What do you think is the most likely explanation for why Otto Warmbier was beaten essentially to death? Do you believe that Kim Jong Un is likely to have personally made that decision, or do you think it is something that maybe happened at the local level because all of their jails are brutal and stuff happens? Or do you think it’s part of a system where Kim Jong Un didn’t need to tell anybody, they just knew, “Oh, it’s an American, we’ll brutalize this guy”? No, I know this is a totally unfair question—you can’t get in the head of a dictator—but if you’re just looking at it from the outside, putting the Korean culture on this as best you can, do you think it was likely an intentional act from the top…
[40:18]
…or more likely he was in a bad situation where bad things are more likely to happen to you? So let’s leave…
[41:27]
…that as a guess. And here’s the caution that I’ve said before: don’t let our emotion about this one tragic situation—that we frankly don’t know all the details of how it happened or why—prevent Donovan from having a happy life in South Korea, and the South Koreans from… so let’s keep the big picture. The big picture is, as much as we care about any individual situation, there’s a greater good here, and we need to keep our eye on the ball. All right, so Donovan, thank you very much. I’m watching the comments go by. You can’t see them from where you are, but they’re all very positive in terms of people who really have enjoyed this conversation. I’ve learned a lot; this was totally perfect for me.
[42:27]
I’ll mention that Donovan is coming in through the WhenHub Interface app—that’s my startup—so I’m actually paying him. I’m sure he would have done this for free, but we’re just using the app, so he’s actually making WhenHub tokens, which we hope to have listed on an exchange so he can cash it out someday soon.
[43:32]
Everything worked. Your team… I just really want to say thank you to you. Your team has been very helpful and supportive, and I appreciate that. For more detailed questions about South Korea, if you don’t have the WhenHub Interface app, you would just go to either the app stores and download it. It’s free. Just search for “Interface by WhenHub” and then search the keyword “Korea.” If Donovan is on, he’ll come up. He’s got a price in terms of tokens. If you sign up for the app, you get free tokens, so the call is free to the person calling. He’ll get tokens which, once we’re on an exchange, he can turn into money. We hope that will be soon, and everybody wins. All right, I think we’ve done it.
[44:34]
I think we’ve covered it. All right, thank you. I’m going to sign off then, first, and then I’m going to say goodbye to you. Everybody, I hope this was useful, and I’ll talk to you later.